Brené Brown Shows You How To “Brave the Wilderness”
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In this episode of MarieTV we do have some
adult language. So if you have little ones around, grab your
headphones now. Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching
MarieTV, the place to be to create a business and life you love. And you are in for such a treat today. We are sitting down with one of my friends
who is quickly becoming a cultural icon and we’re gonna have a very important conversation
about topics that are relevant today and for the rest of your life. Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at
the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation Brené Brown endowed
chair at the graduate college of social work. Brené’s TED talk is one of the top five
most viewed TED talks in the world with over 30 million views. She spent the past 16 years studying courage,
vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is the author of three number one New York Times
bestsellers: The Gifts of Imperfection, Daring Greatly, and Rising Strong. In addition to her writing and research, Brené
is the founder and CEO of Brave Leaders, Inc., an organization that brings evidence-based
courage building programs to teams, leaders, entrepreneurs, and culture shifters. Her latest book, Braving the Wilderness: The
Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone, is available now. Brené! Hi! Hi! Oh, my gosh. I love you so much. I love you too. We’ve wanted to do this I feel like for
so long, and I’m so appreciative that you said, “Girl, can you come to Texas?” Did you go to Buc-ee’s? I went to Buc-ee’s. I made her come just – I made her come just
for the ice house and the gas station. I – so short aside before we get into the
amazingness. Okay? The amazingness of this new book, which this
is my galley copy and you can see guys, I have all these little orange tabs in there. So as an aside – come to Texas, driving
around last night, I have never seen a gas station so big in my life. And I heard about Buc-ee’s, and I go into
Buc-ee’s, and I was like this is a wonderland of goodness. Yeah. It’s like tires, raincoats, fudge. Squeaky pigs. You got it. And then the one thing, which I will show
you guys, we might actually cut it in, is a – it’s this beautiful stone piece where
you put a wine bottle on top and then it’s a spigot. And I was like that’s the kind of gift a
girl like me needs. You gotta trust Buc-ee’s. You gotta trust Buc-ee’s. My husband and I are always waiting to see
if it goes public. I’m like the day – we’re buying in. So, okay, getting to the real, real stuff. I want to start, first of all, this book is
incredible. I texted you that it made such an impact on
me. I think this is the message of our time and
I’m so glad we’re gonna get to peel into it. I want to start with the Maya Angelou quote
that you share. “You are only free when you realize you
belong to no place – you belong every place – no place at all. The price is high. The reward is great.” Let’s dig in with, what does true belonging
mean and why this message? Why now? You know, Maya Angelou has been my most steadfast
counselor for my entire life. I discovered her probably 30 years ago when
I was in college and I leaned into her work. You know how when you find those people that
just are unsparing and honest in their work but they also bring you joy and comfort? She’s that for me. And I love everything she does, except for
that quote. That quote has pissed me off for decades. And I never understood this idea that you’re
free when you belong nowhere. And as a social scientist I know that belonging
– I know this for sure. Like if you ask me the one thing I know for
sure, 200 thousand pieces of data, I know in the absence of love and belonging there’s
always suffering. That I know for sure. So this quote from her about belonging everywhere,
which is really nowhere, is what sets us free, was so troubling to me. But then I starting digging in and I started
trying to understand, what does it mean to belong? And I never thought of the concept of belonging. I thought belonging was like we have a crew. Like a posse. Yeah. A posse, a squad. And belonging to something you kind of negotiate
with external groups of people, but it’s not. What I found very quickly is the rest of that
actual quote is part of an interview that she did where she – with Bill Moyers where
she ends up saying, you know, he ends up pushing a little bit on and saying, “So are you
saying that you belong nowhere and to no one?” And she said, “I belong to Maya.” And what I found is that true belonging is
a spiritual practice and it’s about the ability to find sacredness in both being a
part of something but also the courage to stand alone. And the people – for those of us who struggle
to have the courage to stand alone, especially when we know that it risks – we’re risking
that sense of being a part of something because we disagree. Yes. Because we have a different opinion, because
we love something different, that is the mark. That’s the mark of true belonging. To be able to say, “yes, I am a part of
something bigger but I also will stand alone when I need to.” And then it was like, “Oh, shit. You belong everywhere and nowhere, and that
is liberation.” Yeah. So “braving,” which has shown up in previous
work but I feel like it’s so perfect here. Can you walk us through? For anyone who is not familiar with the acronym
and what it means, what is braving and how does this help us stay connected to ourselves
and others? So braving is all about trust. And so probably three or four years ago in
a lot of my leadership work, I probably – and this is something people don’t know about
me. I probably spend 90% of my time inside big
organizations working with c-suite teams. That’s what I do most of the time. And so in working with leaders, one of the
things that kept coming up is trust. Trust building in teams. Building trust in a culture. The thing that’s hard about trust is if
I work for you and you call me in and I’m like really upset because I got passed over
for a promotion and you say to me, “Look, Brené, you’re doing great work but there
are some trust issues.” The minute you say anything that I can perceive
as “I am no longer trustworthy or you don’t trust me,” we go completely limbic. We go completely out of listening with our
prefrontal cortex to listening, you know, to fight, flight, freeze, defend. Because our trust is our integrity. It’s who we are. So I kept wondering, like when we talk about
trust, what are we actually talking about? Like, what can you – what could you call
me into your office and say to me that would be more helpful, more impactful and productive
than “we have trust issues” or “I don’t trust you?” So we dug into the data to figure out what
is trust, what do we mean when we say trust? And what I found are there are seven elements
that we’re talking about when we talk about trust. And these are observable and measurable. These are what we can talk about with each
other. So “braving” is the acronym we use. B is boundaries. You set boundaries. When you don’t know what they are, you ask. You’re clear about what’s okay and not
okay, which is, as you know, so hard for people. Yeah. Boundaries are really hard. Reliability is the R. You do what you say
and you say what you do. The big, hard thing about reliability is you’re
not hustling for worthiness, so you’re not completely over committing and not delivering. Yes. That’s the reliability issue. A is accountability. You don’t back-channel and blame. You hold people accountable in a straightforward
way. V, which I think is really interesting, is
the vault. Oh, the vault. Can we talk about the vault for a second? Yeah, the vault. The vault is so huge because in this culture
and in this time, I say this with my friends all the time. Like “I’m gonna tell you something and
it’s got to stay in the vault.” Right. It has to stay in the vault. And once that goes, if anyone violates that,
and I’ve had it happen before, something shuts down in me. Oh, it does. It’s hard to come back from it. What people don’t understand about the vault
that’s really interesting to me too is that you call me in and you – “I don’t understand
why I got the position.” You say, “look, we’ve got some trust issues
that we need to work through. Specifically I want to talk about confidentiality
in the vault.” And I look at you like, “Marie, I have never
shared a single thing that you have told me in the 10 years we’ve known each other.” And you look back at me and say, “yes, but
you come in here on a regular basis and share things with me that are not yours to share.” It’s the other side of confidentiality. It is not only do you not talk out of school
between us. You don’t come in here and say, “Hey, look. I know what’s going on with John. Blah, blah, blah.” Or, “This is what’s happening with…”
you know. So – because when I do that – and I do
that to get connection with you, I do that as a bid for connection, let me tell you what’s
going on that you don’t know about. But when I walk out of the office, you trust
me less because I’m using stories that are not mine as currency. Yes. So we’ve got the vault. Then we go to I, integrity, which is choosing
courage over comfort. Practicing your values. And this is a big one. I think we have this in common, and I love
this about you. It’s choosing what’s right over what’s
fun, fast, and easy. Yeah. You know, we have a culture of fun, fast,
and easy. We have a culture of people who don’t do discomfort. And that’s – I’ve never achieved a single
thing in my career or life comfortably. Absolutely, 100%. Yeah. And then we go to N for nonjudgment. You can ask for help without feeling judged
and I can ask for help without judging myself. And then Generosity, which I think is probably
the biggest, hardest one for me sometimes. Which is when something happens I assume positive
intent. So if things go sideways between us I’m
like, “Dammit, Marie. I’m so pissed off.” I go and say, let me assume the best. “Help me understand what happened, Marie. I thought we had a plan around this.” Yes. And I give you a chance, a benefit of the
doubt, before I launch into my anger. Yeah. I think that one’s probably the most difficult
for me as well. The one I can see where I instantly jump to
conclusions or I can watch my mind go to the worst possible scenario. I did it with my family the other night. Like my parents weren’t responding to a
particular text and I made up this entire narrative about what that meant until they
were like, “Oh, we were just putting away groceries.” And I’m like there. It happened again. We do it all day every day. I mean, I have a story. You know, that’s human nature. That’s wiring. In the absence of data we will always make
up stories. Yes. And so I think for Braving the Wilderness,
the whole idea of the wilderness being those times when we stand alone and those times
when we go out on a limb, the times we walk away from what we know, our ideological bunkers
and our beliefs, braving is the tool to help us manage the wilderness. It’s so useful and it’s so concrete and
it’s a checklist. Yeah, it’s a checklist. It’s like we can hold that – I can hold
that for myself just to say “am I in alignment with me and am I feeling good about how I’m
moving through the world?” And that brings me, I think one of the most
impactful, and there’s so much wisdom in this book, but what I want to move on to is
people are hard to hate close up. Move in. This concept of rehumanizing not dehumanizing,
it got me in the heart. It got me in the gut. Especially what’s happening now in our world. There’s something that you wrote and I want
to read it because it is the core of ways that I’ve struggled in the past few years
not knowing how to approach conversations, not knowing how to invite people into a conversation,
and to really take a hard look at my own biases and my own angers and how I would like the
world to be. You wrote, “If you are offended or hurt
when you hear Hillary Clinton or Maxine Waters called a bitch, a whore, or the c-word, you
should be equally offended and hurt when you hear those same words used to describe Ivanka
Trump, Kellyanne Conway, or Theresa May. When the President of the United States calls
women dogs or talks about grabbing pussy, we should get chills down our spine and resistance
flowing through our veins. When people call the President of the United
States a pig, we should reject that language regardless of our politics and demand discourse
that doesn’t make people subhuman.” I want that to be everywhere. God, it’s so hard! It’s so hard. It’s like I wanna take your iPad and just
like “researcher heal thyself.” Yeah, it’s hard as hell because let me tell
you about dehumanization and my concern about it and as I’ve witnessed it. Dehumanization is a very slippery, dangerous
process, and I’ll tell you where it starts. We are actually hardwired neurobiologically
to not hurt one another. It goes against our human nature to treat
each other, you know, to be violent, rape, torture, degradation, humiliation. It actually goes against who we are. And we’re wired that way to protect the
species. We’re a social species. We need each other. We’re completely dependent on each other. The process of dehumanization is the process
that we use to slowly, primarily using words and images, nothing more. Dehumanization is the process of slowly moving
people out. I want to use this table as an example, or
this coffee. So here’s a group of people that we want
to harm. It’s a group of people that we hate, a group
of people that a leader has told us here, this tea right here, is the cause of all your
pain and suffering. So we hate these people and we want to hurt
them and we want to see them diminished. But they’re within this moral, protective
zone that we have as humans. So slowly over time we start using words and
images of them that dehumanize them, that move them slowly and slowly and slowly into
what we call moral exclusion. They no longer are protected by what we believe
is human basic rights. And we see the process of dehumanization at
the core of every genocide recorded in history. The Nazis used I think the word is untermunchen. It’s subhuman, to describe Jews. Every conflict you can see. And so what’s happening in our country right
now from the leadership to the resistance. Yup. No one has high ground here. We are slowly allowing ourselves to start
using dehumanizing language to describe people with whom we disagree. Yes. Which then makes it okay to physically hurt
them. And when we use dehumanizing language, it
says much more about us than the people that we’re railing against. And I think honestly it chips away at our
soul. I agree with you 10,000%. That’s why this hit me so hard, because
I’ve found myself using language that, once I started to make this connection through
your work I was like – it was like these lights came on. And I said, “Oh, my God. This is so true. This is so right.” So I’m so happy that we’re talking about
this, because I have never heard anyone talk about this, about dehumanization and rehumanization
and a way that we can start to enter these really difficult conversations, and we’re
gonna keep going into that. But to retain our dignity and the humanity
for the people that we disagree with. Yeah, and I think, here’s the thing, dehumanization
is not a social justice tool. It is emotional offloading. It is gratuitous. It is self-indulgent. It is a way to offload our anger, our fear,
and our rage, but it has nothing to do with social justice. Right. So moving on, staying in the same zone, another
really powerful passage. “Is there tension and vulnerability in supporting
both the police and the activists? Hell yes. It’s the wilderness. But most criticism comes from people who are
intent on forcing false dichotomies or shaming us for not hating the wrong people.” This is where I see so much pain and conflict,
especially because, you know, I run an online business. I’m paying attention to conversations on
social media. And even when someone is trying to open up
a conversation, I see so much misunderstanding and “if you’re not with us you’re against
us,” and there’s no room for nuance. No. And I’m wondering if you can speak to this
a little bit, because it was in the section about conflict transformation and how do we
stay brave when having these difficult conversations? I know it’s a lot, so we’ll go… No, no. It’s like, you know, I don’t know the answer
to all of it. What I do know is – because it’s scary. It’s scary for me and you. I have a bachelor’s, master’s, and PhD
in social work. Like, I was trained in this language, in these
conversations. I’ve studied dehumanization for 10 years and
still when I go do a Facebook Live around something that’s happening, I’m scared
to death. Because here’s what I know. I know that I’m not going to do it perfectly. Right. I know that not only the people who oppose
my politics and my beliefs are going to come after me, but I know that the people who I
believe that are my allies are going to come after me because I’m gonna do it imperfectly. Yes. But opting out of speaking out because we
may get criticized, to me is the definition of privilege. Like “I don’t really have to speak out because
there are no crosses burning in my front yard, my kids seem pretty safe. You know, I’m not getting pulled over, I’m
not – everything seems fine.” So to opt out because it’s safe is what
privilege is. And so the way I think we have the conversation
is you stay grounded in your humility and curiosity and you say “here’s what I believe. Let me spare you coming back and telling me
how imperfect it is by saying right up front I know it’s gonna be imperfect.” Yeah. “But I’m not going to let my imperfection
move me away from the conversation, because it’s too important.” And here’s the thing that I live by and
here’s the thing that I invite people to live by. At the end of the day, at the end of the week,
and the end of my life I want to be able to say that I contributed more than I criticized. And so if all you’re doing is criticizing
people who are trying to engage in conversations that heal and bring hope, shut up. I mean, really just don’t talk. Because it’s not useful. It’s not useful. I loved, you know, this is gonna air a little
bit later than when we’re taping it. Yes. That’s how the world of video works. But you recently did a Facebook Live, we did
one yesterday, and I watched it and I just thought it was so wonderful because I was
looking through the comments and I loved seeing, you know, where there were places where people
were taking issue with a particular word or a particular phrase. And there were so many people that were coming
in and saying, “Hey, I’d actually love to discuss this with you. You can PM me.” But there was a quality in the intention of
that that did not feel accusatory. It felt like an invitation. It felt like, “hey, I want to share a viewpoint
with you that you may not have considered before.” And it almost brought tears to my eyes, because
I haven’t – I’ve seen so little of that. It’s amazing. It was amazing, right? It was amazing. And we’re talking about 10,000 comments. Yes. But here’s the thing, that’s hard fought. We absolutely – we don’t curate the comments,
we – but we police them. And I’m very clear about that. Can you talk about that distinction? Because I think especially in our audience
and I know, you know, you and I have so many friends in this space, people who are authors,
people who lead companies, people who have the privilege of having an audience, and I
think they would love to hear from you. I certain – that’s why I’m asking these
questions. To have tools. Because a lot of folks are like “I want
my so and so who I admire to speak out.” And I think what you said is so key here,
that you’ve been studying this for 10 years and you walk into these conversations still
feeling really nervous. Oh, my God. Oh, completely vulnerable. In fact, when I taped that Facebook Live on
Charlottesville, my voice was sharking for the first 10 minutes of it. Like I didn’t know if I was gonna be able
to make it all the way through. I didn’t notice that, just so you know. And it was a full schedule taping day of other
things. And it was scheduled to be taped in the afternoon. I said, as soon as I got there in the morning,
I said “I have to do this now because it’s so heavy on my heart and I’m so afraid that
if I give myself time I’ll rationalize myself out of doing it.” Yeah. So for me it’s about this. This is my space on Facebook. You can have your – everybody can have their
own space. In my space, you can disagree, we can debate,
we can argue, but you’re not going to shame other people. You’re not going to name call and you’re
not going to put people down. If you do, I’m probably gonna ask you once
not to do it, and then we will ban you from the page. And I do not think there are enough spaces
in the world right now. There are some people who do it really well. TED does it really well. Because it’s kind of comments are moderated
I guess is the right word, by the people who comment there, the community. So they’ll vote you off the island I guess
if it’s too inappropriate. But I’m not gonna tolerate that, because
it doesn’t contribute. Yes. Now, if someone says like, “Hey, Brené. You’re wrong and I totally disagree and
this is why I disagree,” then I’m gonna answer. I can’t answer all of them but I’m gonna
answer as many as I can and we’ll debate it. If they come on and say, “I hate you and
I’m gonna, you know, I want, I hope you get killed,” you can delete it. I mean, like it’s just… Yeah. Why contribute? Yup. And I know – so I don’t think it’s curated,
but there is a homeowner’s association. Yeah. No, I think it’s really important. We do – it’s a different thing because
it doesn’t tend to go into those content areas, but in our B-School community I have such
a strong stand for kindness and be like, “But why?” And I’m like, look, negativity is toxic. We can debate ideas, we can talk about different
strategies, but we will not trash talk people, we will not trash talk other programs, other
businesses. No. Like, let’s keep it – and it’s amazing
how much forward progress and healthy conversations and true growth can happen when you take care
of that safe space. Yeah. It’s Jill Bolte Taylor who said, “take
responsibility for the energy you bring into a room.” And I feel like what people don’t do online
in social is they don’t take responsibility for the energy they put out into the world. And in the worst case scenario what they’re
putting out in the world is actually disembodied from their identity. They’re – it’s anonymous. Yeah. So I respond to nothing that’s anonymous. So if you’ve got some kind of flower icon
and your name is like Lily from… Sassy Pants. Yes. Sassy Pants 123, I’m not responding to you,
because you’re not in the arena. You’re not showing up. You’re not being brave. So I’m not gonna have the conversation. Yeah. And I think what I’ve been watching too
is I think it’s so much more effective, you know, when people – there’s also like
this call out thing happening. And I think there’s probably a distinction
to be made between holding people accountable and shaming people, because it’s not a way
to open up a conversation. You’re not gonna get folks to actually engage
and then possibly grow and come together when you’re making them wrong. No. I mean, shaming – look, shame never drives
positive behavior. What shame drives is rage, anger, rationalization,
and blame. And so if you’re looking at kind of the
white supremacists and the KKK and the Nazis who are marching around towns and you say,
“Let’s just shame them,” like, let me tell you. If they weren’t ass-high in shame already,
they wouldn’t be marching through town spewing hatred. Is it my job to heal them and take care of
them? Nah. No. But I’m not going to contribute to it. I’m not gonna say, “Look, they’re on
fire. Let me throw some gasoline on it.” If there’s no – and the other thing is,
when I – when you shame people, it hurts you. Like, it hurts you. It’s part of – it’s hard to shame people
without dehumanizing them too. I’m just not going to do what. What I am for is holding people accountable. And that … but the thing is, and this is
– this is the hard part, holding people accountable is not as much fun and does not
deliver the emotional satisfaction that raging against people and shaming people do. So when you post something, some hideous meme
about the white trash, you know, khaki Izod wearing you know, it feels good. Like, you feel “like look at me.” You know, your anger has someplace to go. It does nothing but to contribute to the vitriol. It does nothing. Nothing. And so shame begets shame in the same way
that violence begets violence. It’s not the answer. Is the answer to coddle – and so this what
people say. “Oh, Brené doesn’t want us to shame anyone. She wants us to coddle people.” Well, if the only two tools that you have
in your tool bag are shame or coddle, that’s a sorry-ass tool bag. You need to upgrade your tool bag. Yeah. There’s like 500 things between… You need to go to Buc-ee’s. Go to Buc-ee’s. Get a big basket. Get you a Texas sized toolbag that has things
like, you know, curiosity, accountability, social justice. Yes. I think that’s interesting too. And one of the things that I try to hold true,
I am so not perfect at it. I fuck up all the time. But I try and promote what I’m standing
for. You know what I mean? Giving people a concrete action. “Okay, what can we do?” I think that’s just intrinsic to my DNA. I’m a doer. Yeah. And I always want to do something. I go how can we direct ourselves collectively? Like what are the actions we can take right
now that will help move the conversation or help move things forward? So I think one of them is start having the
conversations with your kids, with your neighbors, with your partner, with your colleagues. Start having the conversations. Don’t go in as the teacher. Go in with curiosity and generosity. What do you think about what’s going on? Questions like this. Like, this is a great email I got. She – someone wrote after the Facebook Live
and said, “I am so offended when people use the word white supremacists. I could barely get through your Facebook Live. But then when my husband came home I said
I want you to watch this so we can talk about it, and so he watched it. And he like kinda shifted a lot and grunted,”
and this is a white couple and kind of probably mid forties. And he said, “Well, what do you think?” And he said, “Well,” and then we just
started talking about it. My 17-year-old son came home, we started talking
about it, and we just started breaking it down and trying to figure out what we emotionally
reacted to compared – if everyone did that, the world would be different in 24 hours. Yeah. I mean, it really is going to take a million
acts of kindness and consciousness to change this. When you’re at work and someone says a joke
that’s really anti-immigrant or anti-transgender, instead of laughing and walking away or just
not saying anything and walking away, you just look and say, “Jesus.” I mean, you don’t have to say, “I’m really
offended and these people are our brothers and sisters,” because people can’t hear
that. You can say, “Jesus, that’s not funny.” Or like, “Hey, dude, if you have to hurt
other people, you’re not that funny.” Yeah. That’s it. I mean, if a million of us did that, if a
million people tomorrow just said, “I don’t really understand Black Lives Matter. I don’t really get it. I want to try to understand it. I don’t want to try to protect myself from
it or defend against it. I just want to try to understand it.” Maybe 200,000 may change their mind. Maybe 800,000 will keep the same opinion. But there will be a shift in the consciousness
of the country just by asking the questions. Yeah. That’s why your work is so important. Okay. I am shifting gears here. Okay. Taking a hard right. Yeah. I’m going. One of my other favorite parts of the book
was about when you were talking about certain conferences wanting you to like stick to certain
topics. Don’t talk about your faith or wanting you
to wear certain clothes. Or the one that really got me, of course,
is, you know, not to cuss. Yeah. And another Maya saying, quote, something
she told you, “I shall not be moved.” I would just love to hear about your journey
with this, because it’s something that personally I’ve struggled with. You know, I’ve adjusted things on my show
because sometimes we just get emails from moms like, “Oh, I watch with my two-year-old.” And so I’m like am I gonna really drop an
F-bomb? Gonna try and put warnings. I’m just so curious about your journey with
that and how it’s evolved over the years. Like, are people still telling you like, “don’t
talk about the faith, Brené, or make sure you don’t drop a little s-bomb?” Not as much as they were and less than they
will be after. I mean, they read this probably, because it’s
just – I think, you know, for me the big two things are “don’t talk about faith.” Because when I talk – when I do a lot of
leadership work I talk about understanding your personal values, and my two personal
values are faith and courage. And so they say “don’t talk about faith,
it’s inappropriate. It’s – this is a, you know, a corporation.” And then I’ll do a lot of work in churches,
and they’ll say don’t cuss. And so I just got to the point where I’m
like, look, I’ve sat across from thousands and thousands of people over the last two
decades of my life listening to the hardest things you can imagine. And the two things that everyone has in common
when they’re talking about those things are cussing and praying. If you don’t want me to cuss and you don’t
want me to pray, that’s awesome. Ask somebody else. Because what I’m not going to do is get
up and bullshit you. And there are a million people in this space
who are better than I am, who know different things than I do. Invite them. If you need me to wear a suit, that’s – I
totally get it. I’m not gonna do that. Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna wear jeans and boots and probably
I’ll wear a nice shirt. But I’m not gonna do that. Because I don’t get up there. When I speak in public, I don’t get up there
to talk to my, you know, to talk from my Brooks Brothers self to your Brooks Brothers self. I get up there and when I walk on the stage
I’m gonna talk about things that 90% of the people in the audience have never thought
about, talked about, and are scared to listen to. And they need to see me as a person. And I’m just that person. Yeah. And so I’m not gonna walk in with like a
therapist outfit either. Well, I don’t know how you define that, but
if clogs are in that then yes, I probably will. Liz Gilbert and I showed up together at an
event and we both had like on like a poncho and clogs and like smartwool socks. And we were like, “Hey, camper.” Yes. So I do kind of look like a therapist convention. But, yeah. It’s just – I think the clear – I want,
if you invite me, I want your event or your leadership team, I want it to be successful. Yes. You know? And if you need me to be someone different
than who I am, it’s not gonna be successful. You need to ask somebody else. Yeah. A decade ago, I’ve done that. Yeah. You know, and then I get offstage, I’m crying,
and I’m like, “Oh, my God. I’m a total asshole. I just spent 90 minutes talking about authenticity,
you know, in clothes that I only wear to funerals.” You know? Like, I’m not gonna do that. Yeah. That’s part of the reason too in the early
days, like I think it was probably maybe like 15 years ago some folks were like, “Oh,
we should do a TV pilot with you. But we want you to be more this.” Yeah.“We want you to be…” I was like oh, hell no. This is why I’m doing MarieTV on the internet,
because I can do whatever I want. But that’s the thing that people I don’t
think, you know, if I would say to people getting started out in this business who wanna
build a platform and speak to people and share wisdom, amen. Do it. We need more of that. And be careful, beware, of shiny objects. Because I’ve had the same conversation about
talk shows or about, you know, and I’m like, “oh, that sounds great. And I’m gonna talk to this person who studies
dehumanization and then I’m gonna do this. And they’re like, ‘No, no. You’ll be hustling up the Kardashians doing
rating …’” I’m like no, no. Yes. Like, that I’m not gonna do. Yes. Like, I got – yeah. Not that, you know, God bless them. Totally. But it’s not what you – it’s not a – your
unique expression. And there’s this part from Braving the Wilderness
that it really changed me. It’s the practice that came from the book
and it is, “don’t walk through the world looking for evidence that you don’t belong,
because you will always find it.” Yes. “Don’t walk through the world looking for
evidence that you’re not enough, because you’ll always find it.” Our worth and our belonging are not negotiated
with other people. We carry those inside of our hearts. And so for me, I know who I am. I’m clear about that and I’m not going
to negotiate that with you. I will negotiate a contract with you. I will negotiate maybe even a topic with you. But I’m not going to negotiate who I am
with you, because then – and this is I think the heart of the book, then I may fit in for
you, but I no longer belong to myself. And that is a betrayal I’m not willing to
do anymore. I spent the first 30 years of my life doing
that. I’m not willing to betray myself anymore
to fit in with you. I just can’t do it. This, I mean, I don’t think I said it. I might have said it at the opening, but I
just want to make sure I reiterate it. This is my little galley copy, but this is
out now when this is airing. You guys have to get this book for yourself,
for everyone that you know and love. And I’m gonna maybe put you on the spot
a little bit Yeah. If you could be open to reading this last
line. I was in tears with this one. Yes. Oh, yeah. So this is the close of the book. Yeah. Okay. “I’ll leave you with this. There will be times when standing alone feels
too hard, too scary, and we’ll doubt our ability to make our way through the uncertainty. Someone somewhere will say ‘don’t do it. You don’t have what it takes to survive the
wilderness.’ This is when you reach deep into your wild
heart and remind yourself, I am the wilderness.” You are the wilderness. I love you. Love you too. You know what I was gonna say? I am the fucking wilderness. Amen. She’s gonna make me cry. You are the fucking wilderness. Me too. Yeah. And that’s not comfortable for everyone,
but… It’s not. That’s who we are. That’s why they call it the wild. Yeah. Yeah. And I love this. I love the fact that people are afraid of
the wilderness, but when you get out there you’ll find some people like us out there. And it’s so free. It’s so free. And it feels so good. We’ll be dancing. I was gonna say, we are gonna be frolicking. With our Buc-ee squeaky pigs and everything
else. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And now Brené and I would love to hear from
you. So this is probably one of my favorite conversations
ever on MarieTV. So much ground that we covered. But we would love to know, what was most impactful
for you? Whether it was one thing or three things,
leave a comment below and let us know. Now, as always, the best conversations happen
over at the magical land of MarieForleo.com, so head on over there and leave a comment
now. And when you’re there, be sure to subscribe
to our email list and become an MF Insider. You’ll get some exclusive content and special
giveaways and some things from me that I just don’t share anywhere else. Stay on your game and keep going for your
dreams, because the world needs that very special gift that only you have. Thank you so much for watching and we’ll
catch you next time on MarieTV. B-School is coming up. Want in? For more info and free training go to JoinBSchool.com. “Oh, Brené doesn’t want us to shame anyone. She wants us to coddle people.” Well, if the only two tools you have in
your tool bag are shame or coddle, that’s a sorry-ass tool bag. You need to upgrade your tool bag. You need to upgrade, yeah,
There’s like 500 things between shame and coddle. You need to got to Buc-ee’s. Yes! Get a big basket … And get you a Texas-sized tool bag.

100 thoughts on “Brené Brown Shows You How To “Brave the Wilderness”

  1. I LOVE That comment about how she is who she is – with all the swears, "god", what ever. amazing. I struggle with being 100% who I am and I am learning that it is about me being me. I will find my tribe just be me.

  2. This conversation was incredibly profound, brilliant, and compassionate. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to my own fault of dehumanizing people I don't agree with politically.

  3. Wow! So relevant for what is happening in our world today. Thank you sooo much for giving us some tools to brave the wilderness. Truly amazing!

  4. You are talented about putting concepts into words in a way I haven't been able to do yet. Thank you for sharing

  5. This was amazing.. I want to read this book like now. The one thing that resonated in me was vault. I need to practice vault in my life …

  6. Holy shit I can't believe it took me this long to run across your message. I already know that I will be listening to this a few more times and ordering your books to read. Thank you for this message, and omg thank you Marie for having this conversation with Brene.

  7. Ok, I don't have a picture of myself hahaha! I'm showing up! But I think Brene' is absolutely incredible and just may save my marriage, not sure, but maybe lol! As well, I now don my thrift store clothing with pride! hahaaa! I've always worn them with gratitude! lol

  8. My wife and I have been following Brene’s work a lot recently and we love her approach, her attitude, and her insight!

  9. A very sweet young friend of mine, told me about Brene yesterday. So, I have decided to to start my day with her from now on. Now, I have Marie tv! I just want to say that I am 54 and have wondered almost all my life, ‘what is wrong with me’? ‘ Why am I not good enough’? ‘Smart enough’? Ect, ect…..I made a decision about 4 years ago to be myself. Because of that, I have lost people. You know why, because I am honest and kind and don’t allow people to tell me WHO I should be to make their world better…..anyway, Brene and Marie, I will buy all your books and live MY truth! I’ve known this in my heart all my life, but have changed to make others comfortable. Thank you. Thank you for saying my truth and helping me to be me! Be kind has always been my motto. You so help me feel that is ok and the the thing WE all should do! Love, love…….💕💕💕

  10. I would love to see this women speak at my Church , WOW!!! She has God's message for us all and the people in the Church need this … everyone needs this but I love my brothers & sisters the most.

  11. Ms. Forleo: I was referred to this video by a colleague. I'd like to understand more about the Accountability vs. Shame thing. Many times, I deal with exposing corruption and I've felt Justice Brandeis's line "Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman." is a guide post. Yet this kind of Accountability shifts to purported Shaming. In other words, it appears that saying one is being "Shamed" is merely a meta-argument to quickly dispose of one's insistence upon being Accountable. Shame is the main societal vehicle for coercing people to behave Good. Or in my case, the publicity of truthful reporting (and its shame?) is society's main tool to nudge/coerce people to behave non-corruptly and ethically. I am open to hearing a differing perspective, maybe you have a different understanding of shame. Thanks, in advance, for responding to my question.

  12. Dear Marie, Brene and you just gave me the courage to be brave again. I was face down in the dirt with shame and I want to follow you more and more. I slipped into doubt because its not easy to be brave. Im 79 yeears old and Im not stopping! Mary Bray, MA

  13. As a caregiver for elders in private homes and nursing facilities, I've turned to this video on three occasions for support. The need for caregivers to develop a community and language is stifled by the fact that we're "shifts passing in the night" . I feel I'm just living ALONE in the vault.

  14. So when you get online and post an angry meme it feels good because you're placing your anger somewhere. But you're contributing NOTHING! <— this is the me that I don't want to be.

  15. dehumanizing are not accountability or social justice tools, they’re emotional off-loading at best, emotional self-indulgence at worst. <– and this.

  16. I needed this. This was incredibly divine timing. Ugh. This book is what I need now. As every chapter has closed I am inviting new beginnings and starting from blank pages completely. This was everything. Everything. Thank you both. -ali moon

  17. I only have love for this! What is now on repeat in my head is the thing i've been struggeling with most in my life, is the differance between fitting in and belonging. In dont fit in anywhere, and thats ok. I do belong to myself in full and thats hardcore. I am in the arena. I am the wilderness.

  18. NO WORDS!!!! I just now heard this and …………..OH MYYYYYY………I am the WILDERNESS!!! this was uhhhhmazing!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

  19. I love the no tolerance to the negativity, if everyone was happy to do that we would certainly have a lot less on the social media. Love, acceptance and gratitude are so powerful. The thing is if we are really all one the idea of slandering anyone is ultimately your slandering yourself. At the end of they day, if you get cut you bleed, if your heart stops your dead, black, white, bi bolar, adhd, christian, catholic, Jewish what ever label you live under. If you are here on Earth your a " Human Being"

  20. Wow, I have tears and goosebumps and so much love and gratitude in my heart right now, You two ladies are the Fucking Wilderness as Am I. I'm the Fucking Wilderness… wow… Brene is so courageous and inspirational, she always has the words that I fail to find, I needed to hear all of this today. Soo many golden nugets of awesomeness Thank you Thank you Thank You x

  21. Packing for a trip to the Canadian Wilderness, not packing my sorry ass tool bag , but picking up the book. Loved it, Thanks so much!

  22. It is truly the greatest & most powerful talk show I watched
    & I watch lots of them
    Thank you for the naked truth

  23. Loved this! Esp this part when Brené shared… "don't walk through the world looking for evidence that you don't belong /are not worthy, because you'll always find it"…. "our worth and our belonging are not negotiated with other people. We carry those inside our hearts" ooowee! ❤️❤️❤️

  24. I SO loved this interview. Two awesome women speaking so truthfully. I watched this first last month and it inspired me to use the ending of the book that Marie had Brene read out on this, to close a talk I gave to a group of medics. It was the first time I was speaking in my own capacity to a room of medics and this video inspired me to truly step into me and own that and why not close with a Brene Brown quote! We all yearn for connection. I am the wilderness!

  25. “In the absence of data, we will ALWAYS make up stories.” This has brought so much awareness to my thoughts and actions. Thank you

  26. this is probably going to sound silly but everytime i listen to this woman talk it hits my heart, such brilliant work, im always in tears by the time it finishes,

  27. I am so impressed with this program….. I have not watched and listened before on Marie TV but I will definitely do it again. Thanks to Marie and Brene for love, candor, insightfulness and that willingness to be vulnerable.
    Karen Lyons

  28. I have Borderline Personality Disorder. The hardest part of for me it isn't the poor emotional regulation or even unstable relationships; those are painful, of course, and have affected my life and the lives of those I've loved in lasting ways. It's the unstable sense of self. Having been dehumanized, I haven't been able to agree with the expression "Wherever you go, there you are!" Wherever I go, I'm whomever the people I find there need me to be, which may differ from whom they want me to be, which has no relationship with who I am. I'm 56 years old as of this moment, and have almost no idea who I am – a wilderness, indeed, about which I often feel bewildered. I'm grateful to Brené for giving me a compass to help me find my way. <3

  29. I stumbled across your talk today and believe it was divine intervention. I really needed to hear this message as I've been struggling with frustration from others. Your message helped to center myself and truly understand my boundaries. Thank you so much! I love listening to your messages!

  30. love love love! And lol on the Buc-ee's references! I'm in Austin, so I totally get it!!! #SorryAssToolBag

  31. Marie!!!! I listen to your podcast RELIGIOUSLY. And today is the first time I’ve watched Marie TV. It’s soooo much better. What was I doing before? I heard you say WATCH this to get the full effect. And I get it now!!! I love you.

  32. The whole conversation for me has been amazing to watch and listen to. Loved the 7 elements of Trust!!! Why did i not bump into this interview sooner!!!

  33. I love Brené Brown and her amazing intelligence. I would love to hear her opinion regarding abortion. I have heard and read so much hate already from both sides, that I don't even know what to think anymore… I believe that maybe Brené could light us up in her own perspective on the subject as she is talking about dehumanisation with so much knowledge. Loads of love!!

  34. I like brene brown because i can tell she could have a conversation about noam Chomsky and understand what she is talking about…i think when women embrace Chomsky and read his books as a species they will be able to defeat the patriarchy…but not until then

  35. Family let's look within, practice braving and embrace our own uniqueness, let's exude what we are wilderness. Thank youuu Marie and Brené. 😊🙏🙏🙏🤲🤔❤

  36. Sometimes shame is necessary when you're up against money and power. When there's nothing else, shame works for the Harvey Weinsteins and Bill Cosbys. People like this will never get it except for shame, except for when other people point out what they have done. Shame works.

  37. My trying not to turn another human into something not human is to look for the journey of how I first knew that individual as one of us and why I moved them into an outer circle as a them. What would have to happen that got me to push them out of the species? I've never known the story or had the experience of another to make that entire journey. Every us and them become a constantly shifting venn diagram with little useful difference. Then the best I can do is check where I stand in relation to their behavior. I'm often bewildered by how someone thought whatever they did was a good move. And sometimes that someone is me.

  38. The dehumanizing conversation, especially in regards to politics was, by far the most impactful for me. I’m not gonna shut up about politics, but I’m gonna try and lose the dehumanizing language. And that is so hard, considering. But it is the easy way out.

  39. If the only two tools you have are shame and coddling…that's a sorry ass tool bag! Love it.
    B.R.A.V.I.N.G. acronym

  40. Been struggling with hopelessness! This sharing from you ladies is so supportive! So loving it brings tears to eyes! I feel hope ! Thank you thank you thank a million times!

  41. I love you Brene Brown. I am also a Social Worker. You inspire me and I have been in the Wilderness for so long! I felt resentment for years, but now I get it! You brought tears into my eyes. I am not alone!!

  42. I love how she brought up that the dehumanizing concept goes both ways. I'm so worried about what I see happening in our culture today, how each side blames each other and how the supposedly compassionate, loving side has no problem in being hateful and punishing towards those they perceive as enemies. One of my favorite sayings is "Cuando apuntas con el dedo, tres apuntan hacia tí." "When you point a finger, three point back at you. We should always be vigilant of our self righteousness. Loved this talk. Cheers.

  43. Every time Brene has used a “bad word” it relaxed me and made me giggle and I was more receptive to her information… because somehow.. it makes a person appear to be more down to earth. “Don’t cuss and don’t talk about faith.” Well… Mark Twain had something to say about the two:

    “Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.”

  44. The way that you both connect was the most amazing thing for me.Many of us are starving for that connection with another human being.

  45. The ending, “I am the fucking wilderness” ❤️❤️ … “you are… me too” 😂✊🏽 loved it!!

  46. Thank you for this. I have a couple of people in my life trying to get me to apologize for being the fucking wilderness. And it's slowing chipping away at my conviction. I needed to remember these wisdoms. Thank you ladies.

  47. I'm finding this conversation very interesting, what keeps coming to my mind is this "standing alone" Ms. Brown keeps referring to. She mentions a husband, standing alone as she says would be pretty easy to do when you have a nice warm and fuzzy place to land after this supposed "standing alone". Standing alone with no soft landing spot is hell.

  48. What a breath of fresh air…Standing within kind truths, shining light on positivity. I love the thoughts of living life with the intention of contributing more than criticism. Thank you.

  49. I am the wilderness. Thank you, Brene. (And Marie!)

    "Into the woods I go, to face the shadow of my soul. If the goal is grow, I've got to enter the forest, enter the darkness, enter the wild wondrous Unknown." – Rob Riccardo (https://youtu.be/H914q2SZQ6o)

  50. This channel FEEDS my soul. Love you precious benevolent soul! Oh my goodness listening to this woman I realize I right about these things in my journal! I chew on these inner phychological thoughts of what is means to belong and braving each step the journey to acceptance. Embracing imperfection and loving and choosing oneself to trust and leap for it! To feel the fear and do it anyway!!! What a thrill ride.

  51. "True belonging is a spiritual practice, and it's about the ability to find sacredness in both being a part of something but also the courage to stand alone". The world needs more Brenes, and I'm blessed to be alive in a time that her voice and messages impact me in such a deep healing way, in my own recovery and lifes challenges to show up & be in the arena. Thank you Marie and Brene.

  52. Paraphrasing, "I know who I am and I sure didn't the first thirty years of my life." "have a discussion about Black Lives Matter." I am a sixty year old guy who until about five years ago didn't know who he was and who he wants to be–and I sure as hell wouldn't waste time considering Black Lives Matter. In fact Marie and Brene I'd just consider as "babble." Getting sober and becoming honest and coachable many years ago was a great start but not enough. Somehow I started listening more to folks like you, new ideas, and you really pushed me beyond. Thank you both sincerely. Your affection for each other is inspiring. John

  53. Is there a place where I can find more conversation the clarity between 'shaming' and 'holding accountable'. It is such a valuable topic. Thanks <3

  54. I am indescribably empowered to point of tears while working at desk.
    Thank you, for liberating us to own our inner wilderness.
    Thank you, for championing the essence of self-ownership and true belonging in the main stream media.
    Most people do not have the courage to publicly own who they are while empowering others to do the same. God bless you both!! For goodness sake, keep doing what you are doing!!!
    – In Deep Appreciation

  55. @34:10 "There will be times when standing alone feels too hard, too scary, & we'll doubt our ability to make our way through the uncertainty. Someone somewhere will say, 'Don't do it; you don't have what it takes to survive the wilderness.' This is when you reach deep, into your wild heart, & remind yourself, 'I AM the wilderness!' ." ~ Brené Brown <3 <3 <3

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